AustinEV has been chasing an off topic thread about solar that I nudged into an ROI for conversions discussion. I’ve been (trying to) think deeply about the balance between justification / enthusiasm for driving electric and the practical benefits for people who are not green zealots. Generally, I don’t push EVs for people unless they are very passionate and I’m wondering if that is a mistake.
I’m still cogitating, but here are my posts on AustinEV…
It started with a post by Joby Wieser of Fredericksburg, TX:
Want to first apologize to any of you that my comments may offend.
I read today’s digest with great amusement.All of us make ROI calculations in everything we do. But some people place value on intangible and in my opinion silly things like “Global Warming”. I bought an electric pickup because I know I know the payments and electricity and batteries will cost less than what I am spending on gas for my ¾ ton truck. If Michael wants to spend his money on PV panels because it makes him feel good then that is a personal ROI judgment he can make for himself.
I do object to these tax payer funded schemes to help pay for them like the City of Austin is doing. Or the State mandating a certain percentage of power be generated by “renewables” The only sure thing this does is raise the true cost of energy and reduce our competitiveness in the world economy. The government has no business picking winners and losers in any market, it is arrogant and foolish to think a senator or bureaucrat knows what is best. Each person acting in his own self interest (how ever he defines it) making purchasing and selling decisions freely is the way to prosperity.”
Then I wrote back:
I don’t agree with you, but I want to thank you for bringing up your views. I’m struggling with a related question about ROI vs doing the right thing. If we’re going to make positive changes then the first movers need to give up on economic justifications. The problem is that creates a huge participation barrier.
I love my conversion and benefit from not buying gas, but I’ll never be able to show a positive ROI. I’d like to have many more people driving converted EVs but I am reluctant to encourage them if they only talk about saving gas. However, the more people who convert cars the more quickly we’ll have non-custom options.
I’m stilling puzzling over this and will post it back to here (and my blogs) when I’ve got it crisped up.
Thomas Burbridge responded with:
Frankly, I do not know how ROI became a part of switching over to personal RE’s [editor: residential energy?].
If you are T. Boone Pickens and you’re building a large scale RE system and reselling the energy to the public, ROI makes sense.
Sure the government will give you tax breaks and your electric bill will begin to shrink. But calculating how many years your 5kw solar or 2kw wind/hydro system will “pay for itself” is a very poor excuse for justifying the switch and should not be a part of a conversation regarding RE’s.
Later, I posted
I think this is has become great ON topic thread because the rational for investing in alternatives is the #1 hurdle potential EV converters face. It appears that home solar has the same dilemma (and shares the same enthusiasts).
ROI is very relevant - nearly every conservation I have about my EV starts (and often ends) with “how long before you pay for it with the gas you save?” My conversion was all about getting past theoretical arguments and getting real world experience so I can answer hard questions. This list is unique because we’ve got access
I believe strongly that “alternative” energy will follow the same patterns that other world changing innovations have followed: early adopters who use the technology regardless of the ROI for their own reasons followed by savvy investors and finally followed by people who have an economic motivation. The hard part is to distinguish a savvy investor from a crack pot* early adopter.
Note: I use the term crack pot in a loving, nurturing, and totally self-effacing way.
PS: 25 miles to 150k!